Tuesday, 25 March 2014

Children as the Opium of the Masses and Fuel for the Fire

I looked around elsewhere and this guy talks about people needing to focus on 'building civilisation' instead. Of course, you need kids to keep a civilisation going, and I doubt anyone consciously built a 'civilisation' anyway; it just evolved blindly. I reckon this guy has some existential issues bubbling under the surface, but his social programming won't let him admit it fully, so he comes out with confused and contradictory pronouncements. Personally, I reckon the kids should be left in non-existence and then there'll be no need for 'civilisation' or anything else.

Elsewhere, this article put me in mind of the wonderful 1973 future dystopia movie 'Soylent Green', except with the focus on the other end of the lifeline:



  1. Hey Karl,
    Good to see your need post.Hope you are okay.

    The word "civilization," in one of its earliest senses, referred to the process of human animals being civilized -- by which we mean, I suppose, achieving a mutual recognition of human dignity, or at least accepting in principle the desirability of such a recognition. Reading Jack London the other day, I came across an unusual word: decivilization. The opposite process, that is -- the one by which people cease to be civilized and become barbaric. There is the ever-present possibility of decivilization.

    During the England & Wales floods the angels become apes. The sick, infirm, elderly, women and children were left behind in the stampede. Dark-suited men, with advanced degrees and impeccable table manners, elbowed aside the competition, got their boarding passes and then retreated into a corner, avoiding other people's gaze -- the gorilla who got the banana.

    I want to ask you something-
    I have found that most of the Antinatalists are introverts,at best ambiverts,but never
    ever extrovert-do you see a connection here?

    1. Thanks for the comment, Anonymous.

      By a funny coincidence, I walked past one of the flophouses in London the other week where Jack London stayed.

      I guess we all know that when the going gets tough the weak and vulnerable are utterly expendable. Civilisation is but the thin veneer etc etc.

      And I imagine any serious, thoughtful person is introverted to a greater or lesser extent. I've never known too many thoughtful extrovers, or likeable ones for that matter.

    2. Myers-Brigg Personality Test ISTJ introvert antinatalist here. :-) And yes, Karl, I find most extroverts to be shallow and annoying as well.

    3. I think the basic thing is, extroverts take their self-worth -- and often also that of other people -- for granted. At least, they never think about it. It takes at least questioning one's own significance before antinatalist wisdom dawns on anyone.

    4. Extroverts always give me the creeps; there is something about a gregarious fellow that always makes me uneasy. The more talkative the person, the more he is trying to get something from me. A man with depth keeps to himself.

    5. THIS!

      I don't mind being around talkative/friendly people (they can be fun to be around sometimes) but as soon as I find out they want something from me it's such a HUGE turn off. I feel used and slimy.

      Which reminds me that I've been wanting to write a blog about faux-friendliness for awhile.

    6. To the most I tolerate the "not so bad" extroverts. Despise all the rest.

    7. Extroverts wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't manage to hog all the things they aren't actually any good at. Also, please leave me the fuck alone.

    8. Maybe you just rely on four letters to tell you too much about yourself. Maybe the problem is less the mouth-breathers talking, but the silent-mopers listening. It has nothing to do with Intro/Extroversion. Existence itself is the problem. Introverts creep out everyone else who can function by being quiet and weird. ISTDJ is only sorting you into a box for which to rail against the others. Find the real solution: Nothingness.

  2. I can play the life game with the best of those bastards, but only for a time, until I need to get away from it all. The really good life players themselves are not that impressive with their life skills outside of the unrelenting nature of their actions. Overall, sociopaths, of which group I most associate, are the ones who really know how to manipulate and such. It's just that I rarely give enough of a shit to do anything. Hence my introverted and antinatalist tendencies. Extroverts are really very needy people. They need all that crap in order to not become depressed.

  3. Don't know what you make of Ayn Rand: "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

    1. Nice theory, GFN, although here in your home country I sense a disturbing collective mentality, and desire to conform at all costs, or do you think I'm being too harsh?

    2. I'm afraid there is not much privacy left anymore due to the GCHQ and NSA.

    3. Rand was satan.This odd little woman's ideology is attempting to give a moral sanction to greed and self interest, and to pull it off she must at times indulge in purest Orwellian newspeak of the "freedom is slavery" sort. What interests me most about her is not the absurdity of her "philosophy," but the size of her audience (in my college-level debates she was the one writer people knew and talked about). She has a great attraction for simple people who are puzzled by organized society, who object to paying taxes, who dislike the "welfare" state, who feel guilt at the thought of the suffering of others but who would like to harden their hearts. For them, she has an enticing prescription: altruism is the root of all evil, self-interest is the only good, and if you're dumb or incompetent that's your lookout.

      Good thing about her?Never had kids.
      The only thing she ever got right.She said it was a responsibility that she was not interested in assuming. When she was writing Atlas Shrugged, she would sometimes say that she was "with book." The only children she wanted were her books.

      So,ya,if adopting her ideas turns one into an anti-natalist too ,I am all for it(& never mind the odious dog-eat-dog core of her overall worldview)

    4. Some of us do not feel guilty at “the thought of the suffering of others” – but actually enjoy watching the distress of other people. We enjoy observing the torment of incompetent humans not because our hearts are “hardened,” but because these very same altruists having been making us miserable (and, yes, taking our taxes) for our entire existence.

      If Ayn Rand is “Satan,” then we can use more such devils.

    5. Mr. Mean Spirited,

      I really enjoy your blog but don't know whether to laugh or not. I wish these blog forums had a sarcastic font - not saying your are being humorous or not, just saying it would help. And thank you for blogging!

    6. The best sarcasm is always the absolute truth.

    7. I don't know about y'all's countries, but where I live people who have no children pay and pay and pay into the welfare system, but breeders are the only ones who can take out of it. If you haven't condemned someone else to live in this rat circus, and you can't find a job, fuck you, no matter how much you've paid into the system in the past. So... yeah, I resent paying taxes for breeders to breed unabated, particularly because when I couldn't find a job I was told to GO FUCK MYSELF. No, actually, fuck you. Does that make me an Ayn Rand satanist? No, it makes me someone who keeps on foolishly wishing for things to be fair.

    8. (Or, to paraphrase Herr Misanthrope: I like capitalists best when they're making fun of socialists, and I like socialists best when they're making fun of capitalists, and we hope they all get eaten by a bear.)

  4. Mr MS-I respect you as fellow anti-natalist,but just tell me are you a tea-partier?
    I seriously doubt that most Tea Partiers/libertarians/whatever have read any of Rand’s tosh; they just buy the “novels” at the store to carry around with them with the titles prominently displayed… in order to show how “intellectual” they are.

    I read the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged in my mid-teens and found the writing style ponderous and tedious. Even in the way back machine I was totally disgusted with the one “heroine” who “enjoyed” being raped by Galt (I think; cannot work up the energy to look it up). I mean: seriously??? And then the whole “utopia” notion where all these vaunted self-made “hard workers” went off somewhere to preen around with their ill-gotten booty??? I mean: even at 15, I saw how dumb this was.

    Anyway, I read about Ayn Rand collecting Social Security and Medicare a long time ago. Hypocrites R Libertarians & Galters. They’re the first in line with their hands out to collect whatever they can, whilst shoving everyone else out of the way. That way it’s more for them and less for the dusky lazy minorities, doncha know???

    1. Mr. Mean-Spirited responds: no, I am not a Tea Partier – am just a bit too antisocial to join anything. While the protestors are right about the dangers of taxation, they simply don’t go far enough by my estimation.

      By my reckoning, Ayn Rand’s “Virtue of Selfishness” is the best thing she has written – if for no other reason than it is the most succinct. While I certainly agree with Rand’s denunciation of altruism; I am not entirely in accord with her defense of capitalism. Every businessman I’ve ever met has been completely dishonest; the more successful, the bigger the crook. (However, my financial interaction with private business has been voluntary; while the government’s extraction of revenue is always coerced.)

      Look, taking money from the government is a distinct thing from paying funds to the IRS – just as a man getting fellatio is far different from a man giving fellatio.

  5. Replies
    1. Yeah, I've seen that, thanks. Pretty nauseating, in spite of the hot blonde:-) Basically, new people are treated as human 'resources', there to keep the economy going and to look after the elderly. Of course, these new slaves will, in turn, require the production of newer slaves and so on and on an on....until the sun goes nova.

  6. I am an anti-natalist.I don't thing the human race will EVER choose antinatalism.
    Then,what gives me hope?This-

    At some point the good Earth isn’t going to support us anymore. People—and indeed all life—is just a phase that the planet is going through, and like all phases, ours will come to an end. In human terms it’s far off. The Earth will sustain life for at least another 1.74 billion years, and maybe as long as 3.25 billion years from now.

    Then,the Earth will enter the ‘hot zone’ of the sun, with temperatures so high that the seas would evaporate.We would see a catastrophic and terminal extinction event for all life.

    Gosh, the image of the seas evaporating, leaving steaming hot whale corpses all over the place is grim, isn’t it?

    Fortunately, that’s not what’s going to happen—all the whales will be long dead by the time the oceans evaporate, so cheer up!

    I am skeptical that life will even make it that long, for reasons written into the solar system long before we ever emitted our first carbon breath into Earth’s lovely air.Of course conditions for humans and other complex life will become impossible much sooner and this is being accelerated by anthropogenic climate change. Humans would be in trouble with even a small increase in temperature, and near the end only microbes in niche environments would be able to endure the heat.

    We among the final generations of humans to walk the earth. Overpopulation and climate change are just two of many reasons why humans won't survive much more than a century into the future.

    Lets not even talk about climate change because I believe there's no use — our fate is sealed-thank God.
    Homo sapiens will become extinct, perhaps within 100 years.A lot of other animals will, too. It's an irreversible situation.

    Thanks to the population explosion and unbridled consumption, the food wars and global droughts will intensify problems like malnutrition and poverty.

    Mitigation would slow things down a bit, but there are too many people here already.

    So there you have it. As Lenin once asked"WHAT IS TO BE DONE"?I say cut down the trees!

    1. Nah, we have 500 million years before the oceans boil. But even then, as Michio Kaku says, we will have become a Type II civilization by then, meaning that earth will even survive the red giant. We will live forever. Sure, this would mean only a handful of people would have children, as everyone lives forever, and someone needs to decide who dies & who gets born, but so what, eugenics is the next logical step, and what's wrong with people being smarter, healthier and better-looking?

      Because if you have a high IQ or are gifted, you could spend your time doiing science or making art, so no need to worry about antinatalism, just worry about your works.

    2. "Because if you have a high IQ or are gifted, you could spend your time doing science or making art"
      Sorry that statement is just not true.
      Lets see- van Gogh made a lot of art-suffered a lot.
      Alan Turing has high IQ- did of science/math-suffered a lot.

      Mate,it ain't about IQ or being gifted-its the nature of sentience to suffer.
      Lets see what Kant had to say about it-a high IQ man,if there ever was one-
      Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made.
      I rest my case.

    3. "We among the final generations of humans to walk the earth"...anon, I agree, and I think you are very, very smart. I am expecting a catastrophic planetary event sometime in this generation or not long after. I have always believed that this earth, and the human race, is an impure festering sore that the universe has been desperately trying to purge since the beginning. I would have loved to see animals thriving, and free at last from humanity. I am heartbroken to have no hope for them. We are all on a sinking Titanic of a planet. Only let us not be so foolish to add more drowning passengers. We know there are no lifeboats. - Aleis

  7. I'm sure most AN's have heard of or read this book, but I never see it mentioned, so I thought I would bring it up. It's a small book called When the People Bubble Pops by Jack Kevorkian. It has got to be the most intense book I've read on human extinction. He goes into what will happen if we continue on our present course, and just how bad it might get, and how draconian a measures would have to be taken if we do.

    1. I.e., a natalist book about how we could, eventually, `safe' the earth. No thanks.

    2. Thanks for the reply, but you obviously haven't read the book. In the last portion he lays out a "final solution." If you think eliminating the majority of the human race by shutting down hospitals, nursing homes, ending vaccines, doing away with government food assistance, mandatory sterilization, is pollyanna I hate to see your idea of draconian.

  8. I read both of the reference pieces. Whether to have children or not is a serious matter, more serious than it seems at the point when a woman knows she is carrying a child and shares the information with the father and her doctor etc and starts to prepare for the next twenty years of her life. What the MP is talking about is a bit of a storm in an egg cup. If anything is 'the opiate of the masses' stupidity is, and it may be relative intelligence to choose to not have children, but children or not we all have reason to be modest with our intelligence to have it seem clearer. Probably the most authentic reason to choose against being a parent is existential, our own childhoods simply lack the emotional material for us to want to repeat the experiment with the inevitable variations. This can have all sorts of mental health and philosophical labels. Put simply, when the chicken gets to roost it does not want eggs to sit on.

  9. Asceticism & Antinatalism-

    I have been AN for a lot time.
    What I have found is that apart from applying AN as regards reproduction(obviously) I can also apply it to other parts of my life to seek peace.
    For example,if I dont buy an expensive "Apple laptop" or Iphone or IPad & instead buy a cheap cellphone,if at some point of time I happen to lose the phone I won't feel as sad if I were to lose an Iphone.

    Today my spects got fell down and broke,but as they were made of cheap glasses I could easily get them replace.If I had bough expensive glasses I would be in terrible agony.

    Lets talk marriage.
    Do you know whats the leading cause of divorce? Marriage. In Belgium 71%
    in Portugal 68% ,in Hungary-67 % marriage end in a divorce.
    I quote a close friend-
    If a man enters a marriage having saved up a down payment for his dream home, it can suddenly be snatched from right from under him. Many men may object to spending this sum of money on a one-day party. (Or spending a year of their life planning it, when they could use the same time to further their career or education) However, what a man wants is really not of any concern. Non-negotiable. A wedding is no longer for the bride and groom. As today's Bridezilla gleefully reminds you, "This is MY day". (Which ostensibly, gives her carte blanche to become selfish, irresponsible, and childlike) Are all women like this? Not at all. Could this be your future wife? Possibly.

    1. I am an AN woman and I can't stand the princess attitude most women have towards their wedding day and towards life in general. I am a WOMAN not a princess. Nobody needs to cater to me, I am a woman that will take care of herself and everybody else that I care about. I don't care if I ever have a wedding day or not. My guy and I will decide on the best way to put our finances to use and I will not intrude upon his hard earned money, neither will he intrude upon mine. When I see a bridezilla I want to kick her in the face, both her and the fool that's marrying her. - Aleis

  10. I think that AN is the new gay,the new black. We're the new disenfranchised group. People think we're irresponsible, immoral folks and that our lifestyle is up for debate

    1. Let's not pretend to be martyrs. No one has been disenfranchised because of being antinatalist. Ultimately, no one gives a shit. And I'd say it's a philosophy, not a 'lifestyle'.

    2. Okay,you have a point,but tell you what, everyday & I mean EVERY SINGLE DAY-my co-workers ask me as to would I get married,when will I have kids,the usual peer pressure.
      Sure I don't give into it,as an AN I am only too aware about the consequence of having a baby.

      But due to my AN philosophy( I used the the word lifestyle as in applied philosophy,lets not go to war over semantics)I never get invited to any office get together.
      People think of me as a sort of Don Juan who just wants to have a nice time.

      Last year I was not promoted,in spite of all the hard work I put in,as the management believes that those with families needed the extra money more & deserve it more ,just because they have kids to support.

      There you have it,in plain English & its gospel truth.
      If you don't believe that's discrimination,never mind.
      Lets agree to disagree-after all we're both AN,there are so few of us that its not worth fighting among ourselves.

    3. Fair enough, you are being discriminated against!

      I didn't mean to sound hostile in my initial reply, it's just that we live in such a culture of 'victimhood' and 'minority discrimination' that I really don't want to be part of, but certainly this is a good example of how being kid-free impacts one's daily life.

    4. There definitely is discrimination against AN. You can see people's hostility on the internet anytime anything pro-AN is published. I have never been considered a "real woman" because I won't be having kids. People think of me as immoral, immature and witch-like because I will not be a team player in the game of life. When in fact it is they (breeders) who are causing all the suffering. There is a woman in my neighbourhood, a new mum, and she is an outright bitch to everybody. But she's a MUM with a BABY so that puts a halo on her head as far as society is concerned even though she goes around stirring up trouble. I work harder, I contribute more, but I'm not a mum. I am a witch to society. Oh well. I never wanted to be part of society anyway - Aleis

    5. The more hostility I get from others, the more I know that I am on the right path. However, I very much doubt whether the average person has even heard of the word “antinatalist”. Ordinary people don’t like me because they think I am “a selfish bastard who hates kids” - and that is fair enough.

    6. I agree with all here.

      I think the average person doesn´t even know that antinatalism exists.

      But I think it´s fair to say that if they do, they may be against it and may think there´s something wrong with us. This is true.

      Other than that, yeah, people don´t like me not because I´m an AN, but because I aspire to being a true individual, a misanthrope and all that.

      And yeah, if you feel a bit of hate, generally it means you are on the right path.

  11. Dear Brothers & Sister,
    I am really very sorry for all of you & I want to help you.
    Life is bad without Jesus,only Jesus saves.
    Yes, Jesus Saves! The Bible says that if you repent of your sins and receive Jesus Christ into your life as Lord and Savior, you will be saved from eternal punishment in Hell when you die.

    How do people become “saved” and “born again” Christians? How can you receive eternal life so that you will be sure to go to be with God when you die? The following is what the Bible requires.
    1. Admit that you are a sinner.
    The Bible says, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
    2. Know that God has already provided for your salvation.
    “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son [Jesus Christ] that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
    3. Know that you cannot save yourself.
    “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5).
    4. Repent of your sins.
    “Except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).
    5. Ask Jesus Christ to save you.
    “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13) and “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).
    6. Proclaim Jesus before others.
    “If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:9, 10).
    You can be joyously “saved” and “born again” and receive eternal life right NOW, as millions of people worldwide have, when you receive Jesus Christ as your Savior. Born-again Christians overwhelmingly look at their salvation as the most exciting event in their lives.
    Can you genuinely say a prayer like the following? If you are sincere, God will immediately save you and give you everlasting life.
    A guide to what to pray:
    “Dear Father in Heaven, I realize that I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins [wrongdoings]. I am willing to turn from my sins and lead the life you want me to lead. I now ask Jesus Christ to come into my heart and I receive Him into my life as my personal Savior. I am willing, by God's grace, to follow and obey Christ as the Lord of my life.”

    Praise the Lord.

    1. If there’s God, then He is a monster on par with, if not greater than, the Biblical portrait of Satan. And I have no clue why anyone would want to worship a tyrannical, sadistic, monster like that.

      Unless of course she happens to be a Godtard like you

    2. Dear Anonymous, I am disappointed with you for several reasons. The first is your anonymity-Jesus wanted to know people and be known by them in the gospels, my name is Malcolm what is yours? If you want to quote The Bible have a name, and have the courage/faith to use your own name. The second reason is that your style of quoting becomes legalistic and religion that becomes legalistic is insensitive law, works, rather than faith or heart, empathy. This blog and the responses to it are meant to be a place of empathy. The third reason for my disappointment with you is that you seem to have no comprehension of how when The Bible is quoted it to people who don't or can't comprehend it, then it becomes a fog of words in which at most what people see is that too many trees, trees that supported a lot of life, have been chopped down to keep it in print.

  12. Say no to life indeed.


  13. More nonsense in The New York Times this morning:



  14. Given how Adam and Eve turned out, maybe Adam and Steve was the better option.

  15. I know you've moved on to Facebook, Karl. But I just wanted to thank you for providing a contrarian oasis of critical thinking on the internet that also managed to be (nearly) free of sexism, racism, homophobia, and classism. As I visit other blogs I am reminded of how rare a combination this is.

    With much gratitude,


    1. Thanks, CP. Although here is still my main gig. FB is more diversion and providing a platform for others.

  16. Hi Karl,

    I have been that most common of blog readers, a lurker, for over a year now and just had to get in touch. I should have liked to send you a private email but could not find any contact info.

    Your posts have helped me not feel so lonely in my AN beliefs. Being an admirer of the English language used beautifully, I have also enjoyed your posts and prose. Not forgetting our shared love of Sam. The only thing worthwhile in two years of A Levels was being introduced to Beckett.

    I am currently sitting in my university accommodation room, which looks more like a prison cell, contemplating the futility of everything.

    Many thanks,
    Nothing is funnier than unhappiness.

  17. Thanks for the nice words, Anonymous. Glad you get something from the blog, although you're way too generous about its quality.

    For anyone who wants to contact me, I've added a new contact thing at the top of the blog.

  18. In The media world we live in there must be a long enough list of performers, sports players, campaigners philosophers and scientists etc, all adults with mature skills, who are single and don't necessarily make a point of their singleness but the media do like to whip up some cliches about them every so often to raise a few newspaper sales. These adults with maturity who remain single are, I suspect, default anti-natalists who simply want to do what they do and keep their companionship private, without a prurient and intrusive media wanting to marry them off and have them produce children to help sell more newspaper through pics of celebrity infants. Could this be an interesting line of enquiry for the more purposeful anti-nalists? Could this be something worth drawing from for public examples?

    1. Bearz,I think you have made a very important point here.
      Zapffe says almost the same thing in his essay "The Last Messiah".
      In that essay, the AN Last Messiah is crucified by the midwives & the gynecologists as they see him as a threat to their

      bread & butter.I have reliable evidence,& I can share it with any one who is interested,& I swear to all that I hold holy &

      scared that its not a conspiracy theory,that a lot of romantic movies with deliberate pro-natalist themes are made in hollywood are financed by capitalists.Well,thats obvious you would say,what new.Its this,the money which the movies make at boxoffice is not the main objective of the producers,if the movie makes a ton of money on the box office,its great,but thats not the main point.Even if the movie fails it does not make a big dent on the treasure possessed by these billionaires.The movies are also be screened on the telly endlessly.

      The main objective of these movies is to make sure that the young folks keep"falling in love" (whatever that may be!)
      & keep on producing a passel of kids,so that the reserve army of labour keeps increasing .The main purpose of the bourgeois

      in relation to the worker is, of course, to have the labour available as cheaply as possible, which is only possible when

      when the overpopulation is the greatest. Overpopulation is therefore in the interest of the bourgeoisie.

    2. http://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah will help anyone who wants to read to essay do so. It is the length of a short story and will need to be read slowly and carefully, but that is to the good-that surely means it has content. So far I have only browsed for the purpose putting it here. Enjoy?

  19. http://www.reddit.com/r/howtonotgiveafuck/comments/24fxt3/htngaf_about_the_fact_that_humans_are_decaying/?sort=hot

  20. I'm currently in my final yr of uni which has been a long, hard and difficult struggle for me, I repeated my final yr because of ill health, the people in my yr have graduated and the few friends I had there left the uni, I came back to to a new set of people who have made their own cliques so I do not fit in, even the uni lectures think less of me because I'm quiet and don't never made an effort to be friendly and they see me as some quiet, retarded person, I just hate my life and wish I had the guts to end my life, my final yr has been the worst experience ever and I dont want to go to the graduation because i dont know anyone, I'm so close to wanting to die but keep holding back.

  21. Yeah, I feel the same weariness of life. I wish I could tell you it gets better over time, but my experience has been that it doesn't.

  22. Women should be terrorized by their men; it’s the only thing that makes them behave better than chimps.-Antinatalist Hero Matt Forney

  23. "Antinatalist hero"? Just because Jim Crawford posted a link to one of his podcasts that discussed the subject?

    1. Frequent commenter on the blog, Mr Mean Spirited has expressed the same sentiments. Wife abusing is asshole shitstain behavior. Don't support asshole shitstains, even when they're praising you.